Basic skin care routine questions?

[julia]

In my quest for the perfect antiaging product I also started looking for the best way to care for my skin. I have read over and over the routine of cleanse, tone, moisturize, and protect.

One of my questions is has the routine itself been studied and proven to help prevent aging?

I ask this because all growing up my mother told me to use irish spring soap on my face and rub the skin off in the shower with your fingers about every three days. I am currently 28 years old and my mother is 54 and still has great skin. I recently tried her soap method and found that what it did was made my face produce more oil. So I was wondering if maybe because her face was always producing more oil that is why she stayed so young looking. This gets to my next question.

Is it best to moisturize with a lotion or an oil similar to your own oil? And would an oil moisturizer last all day or would you need to reapply?

Thank you,
Julia

[blackandtan]

what I find funny is that was my mothers method as well. What I used was a harsh facial towel to exfoilate the skin and did it once a week. I didn't find my skin to be dried out afterwards. Your questions are intriguing, I hope someone has the answers! :D

[julia]

I also wonder if all that manipulation of the face would cause your face to age faster by stretching the skin out. If you do the whole routine twice a day rubbing creams on and cleansing It seems like it might make your face sag faster. I guess you try to be gentle as possible and not stretch your skin while your doing it. I wish I knew if the routine helped or hurt your skin I sometimes wonder if the cosmetic companies created this routine just to sell products. I mean you have to buy cleanser, toner, moisturizer, and sunscreen(I understand the need for this one though). Then they want you to use it twice a day plus whatever anti-aging cream you use this just seems excessive amount of stuff to do to your face.

[George]

Hi -

I am definitely guilty - I am a HUGE proponent of Cleanse => Tone => Moisturize => Protect (Sun). There are a ton of reasons why...

Re: Irish Spring and you Mom's regimen. Wow. :) It works for her - so I guess that is good. More often than not, though, the result is what you experienced: You strip your skin and stimulate it to produce more oil.

Is this necessarily bad? Well, that depends on your skin. Some people can have an oily-side complexion and have a lifetime of beautiful skin. Others who get too much oil going will have issues with breakouts. Or, something I see ALL the time - oily skin, with flakes on top - like oily but with flakey dryness on top. This is almost always due to harsh cleansing and over-exfoliation (stripping) - it is a viscious cycle.

Why the CTMP method? Well, first let me say that my entire Web guide to skin, as well as my skincare business, is based on this priciple - I am biased. :) Here's why I believe...

It is the most flexible program there is, while still retaining the fundamentals you need.

CTMP is not a rigid, inflexible rock that you can't deviate from. For example... If you have more oily skin, it is OK to skip the added moisturizer. Instead, you can just use a moisturizing toner - like one that contains a good water binding agent like hyaluronic acid. In many cases, that's all the moisturizing needed. Or - you can skip the added sunscreen if you are getting spf 15 out of your moisturizer or even out of your makeup.

Bottom line: Every must Cleanse - you must keep your skin clean for it to be healthy. As a general rule, gentle is better as most people do not respond well to irritating soap or harsh cleansers.

Everyone should tone. Toner can provide an extra level of cleansing if you have a ton of build up. Or it can add additional moisture if you have dry skin. Or it can replace your moisturizer if you have oily skin. A WONDERFUL, versatile component. Stay away from alcohol, witch hazel, and harsh astringents.

Everyone should moisturize. If you have oily skin, it may not be because you are naturally this way - your constant stripping and over cleansing may be stimulating your skin to produce more oil. Staying hydrated and applying the rigt moisture for your skin condition is huge. CTPM will help normalize your skin and break oily/dry cycles.

Everyone must protect. The single most important thing you can do to prevent early skin aging - lines, wrinkles, blemishes, age spots, etc, etc, is to protect your skin from the sun. SPF 15 or more for everybody, all the time.

So you see - CTMP is flexible, effective, and serves as the foundation for all other skin treatments. Ironically, if follow religiously, you probably won't need many supplemental treatments, save for an occasional professional facial... :)

Sorry for the long post - I hope this sheds some light on the topic from a tried and true CTMP believer...

G

[Jouke]

One question George: for toning right now I use rosewater, from the drugstore. I added some (5%) aloe vera myself though.

The rosewater-bottle claims it is meant for sensitive skin, is soft and doesn't degrease you're skin.
Stil: the third ingredient (after aqua and propylene glycol) is "alcohol denat" !!!!!
That worries me, you and other experts always tell us to avoid alcohol.

The rosewater, ofcourse, doesn't irritate, but I have a strong skin, though dehydrated after cleansing rather fast (later it gets oily again).
However, do you still think it is better to look out for an absolutely alcohol-free toner?

Thank you in advance and kind regards,
Jouke

[George]

Hi -

First - all alcohol is not created equal. :) Definitely stay away from SD alcohol or denaturated alcohol. This type of alcohol will tend to dry out and/or irritate your skin. (Funny - the effect is a tight feeling, which leads some people to like the product in many cases!)

There are other alcohols that are fairly harmless. But here's the thing - most people don't want to carry around a list of chemical ingredients when they go shopping for their cleanser and toner. Since there are TONS of products out there that don't contain any alcohol - it's easier just to avoid them entirely.

There are a gazillion alcohol free toners out there. Many even have a bit of aloe, if thats an ingredient you like.

Regarding the product that you're using... I frequently go into the grocery store and study the ingredient labels on all the products (yes, I know - total geek). You would be shocked at what's out there. Sensitive skin toners with alcohol, witch hazel, citrus, and all manner of irritating ingredients. Clean and Clear Pore reducing toner reduces pores, yes - by irritating so much that your skin swells - thus reducing pore size.

If your skin is "dehydrated after cleansing...[but] gets oily again" I would say that you should look for a very gentle cleanser and an alcohol free toner that has a good h20 binding agent in it - like hyaluronic acid.

Yes, I think you should look for an absolutely alcohol free toner. (Free of all irritants - citrus, witch hazel, menthol, peppermint, etc.)

Good luck! :) :)

[blackandtan]

wow, thank you for the info :-)

[George]

Hi -

You're welcome - I hope my comments are useful! :)

Last night I was "talking toners" with my wife (a licensed esthetician). The conversation was based on this string of forum posts. We have started recommending (not exclusively) many DDF products. In particular - DDF Aloe Toning Complex.

Jouke - this may be a good toner for you. It contains some aloe, which I know you like and it also has some moisturizers in it, which may help break the dry in the morning, oily in the PM cycle you mention.

Anyway - I was thinking about you and wanted to point out this product to you.

Incidentally - we use (extensively) products by Coates Aloe. We have the products private labeled for us, and we've really come to like them. They are based on aloe and are available in several lines, each focusing on different skin situations.

[jamesherried]

[jamesherried]

CTMP is good advice. But just be aware of the fact that none of this is likely to reduce wrinkles, especially if the wrinkles are "dynamic wrinkles" caused by repeated facial motions. For example, if a person has crow's feet due to constant and excessive squinting, the only remedy for that is to stop squinting and/or get Botox injections. However moisturizing can diminish the "appearance" of fine lines or small wrinkles, but the effects are short-lived, and you have to reapply the moisturizer repeatedly. That doesn't mean that moisturizers aren't useful though, but they do have their limitations, and they don't actually remove wrinkles, they just mask them temporarily. Then of course, loss of facial volume, which can be worse than wrinkles in some cases, especially as people grow older, cannot be addressed by the CTMP method. And as far as toning goes, some skin doctors (like Dr. Murad and Dr. Perricone) claim that toners are just a waste of money and they don't really do anything special for your skin. Others claim that a toner can tighten your skin by pulling the protein molecules in your skin more closely together, but I don't know if anything can do that. Also, from an all-around good health point of view, I don't think it's a good idea to "always" wear sunscreen or sunblock. The latest advice that even some noted dermatologists are giving is that people should expose some of their "unprotected skin" to the sun each day for moderate amounts of sun to get not only the Vitamin D needed for good health, but also to get other benefits that sun has to offer. For example, researchers at Stanford recently reported to the public that exposing the skin to the sun actually causes immune cells to come into the skin that fight off skin diseases. Other reports say that exposing the skin to the sun increases the body's levels of beneficial hormones, such as testosterone and DHEA. And one study showed that people who got no sun on their skin each day had higher levels of skin cancer than people who got moderate doses of sun on their skin each day. This isn't really surprising considering that Vitamin D is now considered by some health experts as an anti-carcinogen in regards to certain types of cancer. And if the sun actually does bring more immune cells into the skin(as the Stanford researchers reported), that may help fight off skin cancers that can be caused by viruses. Many believe that our phobia regarding the sun has gone too far, and it appears now that the best advice( from an overall health point of view) is to be a "sun bather" ,not a "sun worshipper". Get some "moderate" doses of sun on your "unprotected" skin each day (getting on your back and your legs is better that getting it on your face or neck, since the skin on the face and neck tends to be more sensitive to the sun), but use a safe sunblock or sunscreen when out in the sun for prolonged periods of time. In generall, though the CTMP approach seems like good advice. I would just modify it somewhat, and it won't accomplish what many people on here want, like remove or prevent dyanmic wrinkles or fight loss of facial volume.

[George]

Good post - There are some great points in there that needed to be made. The sun is a very important part of a healthy lifestyle for everyone.

To clarify...I always recommend using spf 15 on your face. This does not completely prevent sun from getting to the skin - it just means that you can (theoretically) stay in the sun 15x longer and not burn. And of course, we're talking about facial skincare.

Also - wrinkles can be, as you mention, caused by overuse. However, the vast majority of aging issues (not necessarily wrinkles) can be directly attributed to two things: sun overexposure and lack of moisture/dehydration. If you combat these things, you will have a much easier time dealing with a variety of skin aging issues - including wrinkles.

I hope my clarifications helped. And thanks for the great post above - I was particularly interested in the research on lack of sun - very interesting indeed...

[jamesherried]

One more thing: I think ideally it's good to expose as much of your unprotected skin to the sun as possible (except for maybe the face and neck). I don't mean as "long" as possible, but as "much" of your skin as possible at any one time. This may seem like crazy advice on a site where everyone is so fearful of the sun. But if you do it that way, you'll get the benefits of sunlight on the skin faster without having to overexpose any part of your skin. For example, if you expose your entire back to the sun, you'll make more Vitamin D faster than if you just expose the palm of your hand to the sun. Then you don't have to stay out in the sun as long to get your full daily quota of Vitamin D. But I know that the CTMP method is generally good advice to be aware of.

[drtodorov]

I agree. If you wish to get your vitamin D naturally, you should try to avoid exposing your face and neck, but expose the rest of the body.

[jamesherried]

In addition to CTMP (Cleanse, Tone, Moisturize, Protect) one more thing should be added: E for "exfolliate". I'm still not sure if a toner is necessary, but I guess it can't hurt if it's a safe one. And regarding the sun's ability to ward off certain types of cancer, here's a new article on the American Academy for Anti-Aging Medicine website. However, I know that HIGH amount of sunlight with age the skin faster, so it could very well be that moderate doses of sunlight will cut the risk of prostate cancer just as well. Some health experts also claim that Vitamin D can also cut the risk of colon cancer, which is more prevalent amonst people who live farther from the equator and get less sun. Of course, if it's just the Vitamin D alone that's responsible for cutting the risk of cancer, you could just take Vitamin D supplements, but I favor getting moderate amounts of sun on the skin each day for the other health benefits the sun may confer. As I implied in another post, if the sun does increase the number of immune cells in the skin (as the research at Stanford says), it might be that "moderate" doses of sun can decrease the incidence of skin cancers that may be caused by viruses. Not all skin cancers are caused by the sun. In fact one noted skin doctor and researcher adamantly claims that most skin cancers are not caused by the sun, although he admits that excess amounts sun will damage and age the skin faster. Anyway, here's the article from the website of the American Academy for Anti-Aging Medicine:

SUN CUTS PROSTATE CANCER RISK
Sunlight can reduce a man's risk of prostate cancer, a study suggests.

Researchers from three US centres found men exposed to a high amount of sun had half the risk of the disease than those exposed to a low amount.

Writing in Cancer Research, they suggest that the protection was a result of the body's manufacture of vitamin D after sun exposure.

But men were warned not to sunbathe excessively because of the risk of developing skin cancer.

Vitamin D is also found in foods such as oily fish.

Experts from the Northern California Cancer Center, the Keck School of Medicine of the University of Southern California, and the Comprehensive Cancer Center of Wake Forest University all worked on the study.

They looked at 450 white patients aged 40 to 79 with advance prostate cancer, from San Francisco.

They compared them with a group of 455 men of similar ages and backgrounds who did not have prostate cancer.

The men were all asked whether their jobs had involved working outside, and if so, how regularly they did this.

The scientists also looked at the difference between pigmentation in underarm skin which is usually not exposed to sunlight, and forehead skin, which is.

To do this, they used a portable reflectometer - a device which measures skin tone by emitting light and assessing the amount that is reflected back, giving a reading on the colour of the skin from 0 to 100.

The difference in scores taken from underarms and foreheads provided an indication of how much exposure to the sun men had experienced.

The risk of prostate cancer was found to be halved in men who had the highest amount of sun exposure - an average of 20 hours a week, or more.

Gene variants

Previous research has shown that the prostate uses vitamin D to promote the normal growth of prostate cells and to inhibit the invasiveness and spread of cancer cells to other parts of the body.

Genes determine how the body processes vitamin D. They control receptors which vary in their ability to bind to the vitamin and therefore influence the behaviour of cells.

DNA tests carried out by the researchers showed the risk of prostate cancer was reduced by up to 65% in men with certain gene variants.

Dr Esther John, of the Northern California Cancer Centre, who led the research, said: "We believe that sunlight helps to reduce the risk of prostate cancer because the body manufactures the active form of vitamin D from exposure to sunlight."

She added that if future studies continued to suggest this link, increasing vitamin D intake from food and supplements might be the safest solution to achieve the right levels.

Chris Hiley, head of policy and research at the Prostate Cancer Charity, warned that while increased exposure to sunlight might decrease the risk of prostate cancer, it also increased the risk of skin cancer.

"Men need more evidence-based research to know how to balance the risks and benefits."

Henry Scowcroft, of Cancer Research UK, also cautioned that more work was needed to weigh up the risks involved.

"For most people, it usually takes just a few minutes of sun exposure for your skin to make a very large amount of vitamin D," he added.

[Jouke]

Hi George, and also James,

Thanks for all your fantastic information! It's some time ago yet I posted my questions, and it's not a lack of interest that my reaction went out, on the contrary, but I have been on vacation for three weeks.

During my vacation I read Paula's Beauty Bible, you might as well know it.
Her information went so well together with everything I have read here on the forum: don't irritate, exfoliate, protect against sunshine!!!!
She says: "There is no such thing as a safe tan!"

I happened to go to South Africa, where it is warm and sunny at the moment, as it is winter here in the Netherlands.
I used to do a lot of sunbathing whenever possible in the past, but right now I have bought a big hat, SPF25 and I stayed out of the hot African sun with my face and neck. Just my back is well tanned.

After reading Paula's book, I immediately threw away the irritating high alcoholic crèmes and toners I had brought with me. Back at home I have thrown away the rest of alcohol-containing stuff.
Paula says that you shouldn't treat acne and oily skin with irritating products and moisturize afterwards to calm down your skin again.

I have now ordered some of her samples of non-irritating cleansers, moisturizing toners, exfoliaters (BHA-gel 1%) and a non-greasy mattifying moisturizer SPF15 (avebenzone?).
None of her products contain irritating ingredients (apart from the BHA) and parfum.
I have not received them yet. Do any of you have experience with her products? Are they good indeed?

Paula's Choice has a European sales/ supplier point here in Holland. I can even pick things up when I am in the neighbourhood. That makes it easier and cheaper for me than ordering in the USA, even though I know there are also fantstic products!
But I'll first try Paula's.

Kind regards and thanks again for you highly valuable information, this has changed a lot for me and my skin looks much better allready (also because of the tretinoin)

Jouke