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PUFFY eyes - need DILATION or CONSTRICTION? Confused! =(

 
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trav859



Joined: 24 May 2007
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 12:32 pm    Post subject: PUFFY eyes - need DILATION or CONSTRICTION? Confused! =( Reply with quote

Hi Dr. T, I've purchased your pdf research a long time ago and I'm a bit confused as to what should I use for puffy eyes that have formed bags (not hollow).

this quote is from: smartskincare.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=994&highlight=constriction

drtodorov wrote:
Caffeine does have some anti-edema effects, possibly by altering capillary permeability and perhaps through mild indirect (perhaps via norepinephrine release) peripheral blood vessel constriction. Therefore, it might reduce facial puffiness if applied topically.


You mentioned in the above that blood vessel constriction may reduce puffiness and this made me jump off my chair because I've been applying Ubiquinol (bioavailable CoQ10) to my eye bags for some time now, and I haven't seen any changes. I know that CoQ10 is for treating hypertension - so in theory I thought this was a blood vessel dilator or vasodilator. Am I right?

Am I going the wrong path? If I want to reduce the puffiness should I constrict the blood vessels or dilate them? I feel so bad, confused, stupid and miserable all at the same time :(

I figured if I need to constrict them, these are the topical vasoconstrictors out there that I could use:

GLA (Borage Oil)
EGGC (and Caffeine from Green Tea)
EPA/DHA (Fish Oil)

Actually I was initially using GLA but then I stopped after knowing it could cause hypertension, I don't know what I was thinking, maybe I thought hypertension means your vessels would explode therefore cause outburst or edema...?

I'm only 22 y/o and I already have these very noticeable bags probably because of too much squinting :(((( Help. Thanks everyone.
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drtodorov
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Joined: 10 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, to reduce puffiness you need to reduce capilliary permeability (make capillaries less leaky) and/or constrict blood vessels (i.e. reduce inflow of fluid to the area).

Keep in mind that one has to be careful with vasoconstriction because if done to excess it can have negative effects.

CoQ10, GLA, EPA, DHA, EGGC do not dilate or constrict blood vessels directly to any clinically significant degree.

Caffeine reduces capillary permeability and might also act as a mild indirect vasoconstrictor as I mentioned.

There are a number of things you can do to reduce puffiness. See smartskincare.com/infopacks/infopack4.html
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trav859



Joined: 24 May 2007
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

drtodorov wrote:
CoQ10, GLA, EPA, DHA, EGGC do not dilate or constrict blood vessels directly to any clinically significant degree.


Thanks Dr. T! I have that pdf! That's where I found out about "constriction" stuff... I found this while googling

"one of the Series 1 Prostaglandins, PGE1, is a vasodilator, while one of the Series 2 Prostaglandins, Tromboxane A2 (TXA2), is a vasoconstrictor. GLA is a precursor to both PGE1 and TXA2"

It gets more confusing! So how do you isolate or at least control GLA to just yield to TXA2 to promote constriction? Sigh :( I feel so ugly and hopeless :( Is there hope? So far I could only use Caffeine and another cream that you mentioned in the pdf, and the thermage suggestion would be a no no, after reading some bad reviews of that procedure here. Thanks again for the quick reply.

P.S. The TXA2 is a vasoconstrictor and other sources also refer to it as a pro-inflammatory molecule. So in terms of eye puffiness / bags, should we look for an anti-inflammatory or pro-inflammatory? Or was that just a coincidence that it's a vasoconstrictor and pro-inflammatory at the same time? Thanks Dr T.
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drtodorov
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you using GLA orally or topically? And what is the reason you are using it?

You also need to figure out whether you have puffiness rather than just skin sag and/or fat deposits. Puffiness is usually pronounced in the morning and goes away by the evening.
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trav859



Joined: 24 May 2007
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

drtodorov wrote:
Are you using GLA orally or topically? And what is the reason you are using it?

You also need to figure out whether you have puffiness rather than just skin sag and/or fat deposits. Puffiness is usually pronounced in the morning and goes away by the evening.


I was taking GLA orally last year for about 6 months for severe cystic acne, which made me clear up BUT the side effect was hair loss. Hair all over my body are falling out (my theory is since it is a vasoconstrictor, it might have caused this), my scalp hair, eyebrows, lashes, mustache, body hair everything started thinning, but I've grown some of them back [thanks to BioSil (orthosilicic acid) and Biotin]


Then I tried applying it topically after much of that side effec, I figured local treatment has to be exercised and then I thought of applying them in my eyelids before switching to coq10

I would guess they are fat deposits since they don't go away, they protrude and look like the worst bags you could ever have, i uploaded photos online:

picasaweb.google.com/sscare08/Sdfg

could you help me identify?
they look like double bags in each eye. im only 22, could it be the eye muscles because i keep squinting and flexing my eyebrows it was a bad stupid mannerism :(
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drtodorov
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I doubt that oral GLA in usual doses is a systemic vasoconstrictor to any significant degree. At least, I haven't seen any data to that effect.

Your under eye bags don't seem to be from puffiness anyway. Thermage is probably too risky to consider. There is a new RF variant that seems safer, called Refirme. It is hard to say at this point how effective it is for tightening (if at all). Anyway, you can google for it...
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trav859



Joined: 24 May 2007
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

drtodorov wrote:
I doubt that oral GLA in usual doses is a systemic vasoconstrictor to any significant degree. At least, I haven't seen any data to that effect.


I forgot to mention that I megadosed. 1-2g/day, Prior to that, I took about an equal amount of the n-3's EPA/DHA (2:1). This hair loss was the consequence. I read somewhere that these compounds are blood thinners. GLA is even used as a natural cure for cancer - anti cellular hyperproliferation - which reminds me, this too could have contributed to the hair loss.
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estheticianmarcella



Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Posts: 3
Location: Los Angeles

PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:03 am    Post subject: Hello Reply with quote

If I could interject and offer another little tidbit that hopefully might also help: It's also necessary to manually move the fluid in the bags out. I know most places say that when applying products around the eye area, one should gently pat. I could not disagree more with this.

To increase penetration into the skin, it is necessary to increase heat in the skin. The only way to do this is to increase circulation or blood flow to the area, through massage. It's necessary to be gentle, but especially in this situation, I think it will help the effectiveness of what DrT is telling you, by gently massaging and simultaneously moving the fluid out (in other words, massage from inner eye/nose outwards.) You can even use a q-tip and place it in the inner-most part of the eye and roll it out. It would be considered a mini lymph drainage-like massage. When patting, products don't penetrate as well, and fluid just sits there.

I hope you can apply this and I hope it works for you!

Take care...
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