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Why on earth use tretinoin when you can use CE+Ferulic Acid?
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Free Radical



Joined: 06 Mar 2009
Posts: 22
Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:56 pm    Post subject: Why on earth use tretinoin when you can use CE+Ferulic Acid? Reply with quote

From what I've read, tretinoin does work wonders for the skin, but there are 2 major side effects which are increased sun sensitivity, and stopping hair growth on the scalp. One person on this forum said her hair only grows 5 cm! Even if that's an extreme example, I think that's a major consideration.

If any of you have been using tretinoin please tell me about your hair length, whether good bad or no difference.

As good as tretinoin is for the skin, I just cannot understand why people use it when Vitamin C+E+Ferulic Acid combo has the same benefits without these side effects.

Im starting to think that tretinoin would turn me into a bald vampire type creature, like Max Schreck from Nosferatu.

I would love to hear a spirited defense of tretinoin over CE+ferulic.

Thanks
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Barefootgirl



Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 31

PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have had good results using both products - just not all at once :)

Actually, I make my own C&E serum since I do not have faith in the effectiveness of shelf products.

I do not believe it has to be either/or - and have not noticed any hair loss since using tretinoin.

BF
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orangehrzn



Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 1044

PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Accutane (oral iso-tretinoin) might lead to hair loss at super high doses due to toxicity. At normal doses or low doses for rosacea that is not likely at all.

I think many people confuse topical Retin-A (tretinoin) with oral accutane (iso-tretinoin) in side effects. They are not the same compound and topical retin-A does not enter the blood stream in sufficient amounts to alther the body biochemistry like oral accutane.

Due to the above confusion, many people think that topical retin-A has properties of oral accutane - it reduces oil production and causes hair loss. That is simply not true in my experience - I never observed reduction of oil production from topical retinoids nor hair loss.
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Free Radical



Joined: 06 Mar 2009
Posts: 22
Location: UK

PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For orangehrzn, thanks for clearing that up. My concern was raised by a story I read of one user of tretinoin who did experience hair growth issues. But that may not have been down to this product, only that was the conclusion of this user. I haven't come across any clinical studies on this issue, so any anecdotal stories would help me.

For barefootgirl, I'm glad you found they both worked. But can you specify the difference between them, what exactly they do for the skin. E.g. Do they both increase epidermis turnover, and achieve the same appearance? If so, I still don't understand why tretinoin is needed at all.

on the matter of making your own serum, I'm having trouble finding anhydrous base for a CE Ferulic serum. The only place I know about is bulkactives.com but they only sell by the bucket load. Do you know of any other sources? Grazi.
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Barefootgirl



Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 31

PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Free - it's better for you to educate yourself on these topicals - I recommend you not only read the articles on this site, but others as well.

Example - use the search functions on boards such as makeup alley, essential day spa - etc.

BF
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Josee



Joined: 08 Sep 2009
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This will not be a spirited defense but my mere thoughts.

We first need to realize that we're comparing different things.

RetinA increases collagen and elastin production basically.

Ferulic acid, vitamin C and E are antioxidants (which has nothing to do with collagen production). Vitamin C also promotes collagen production but to a lesser extent than RetinA. Additionally, there are some studies that have suggested that Ascorbic acid impairs elastin production.

Because of this, RetinA would be the choice for antiwrinkle therapy. People could avoid irritation if they used either RetinA micro, or just 0.025% which is more than enough to induce collagen production.
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Whisper9999



Joined: 16 Feb 2007
Posts: 93
Location: Sunny Southwest

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Why on earth use tretinoin when you can use CE+Ferulic A Reply with quote

Free Radical wrote:
From what I've read, tretinoin does work wonders for the skin, but there are 2 major side effects which are increased sun sensitivity, and stopping hair growth on the scalp. One person on this forum said her hair only grows 5 cm! Even if that's an extreme example, I think that's a major consideration.

If any of you have been using tretinoin please tell me about your hair length, whether good bad or no difference.

As good as tretinoin is for the skin, I just cannot understand why people use it when Vitamin C+E+Ferulic Acid combo has the same benefits without these side effects.

Im starting to think that tretinoin would turn me into a bald vampire type creature, like Max Schreck from Nosferatu.

I would love to hear a spirited defense of tretinoin over CE+ferulic.

Thanks


Actually, I believe retinoids are used in a hair loss formulation called Min Saw which has a study or two behind it. The retinoids allow in more of the minoxidil (Rogaine) if I remember right.
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jands



Joined: 21 Nov 2005
Posts: 104
Location: Taiwan

PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Free Radical wrote:
I'm having trouble finding anhydrous base for a CE Ferulic serum..


This will not work. Ferulic acid is soluble in alcohol (or PG). So, the product will separate. I have tried this many times over the last few years and no matter what I do it does not work.

One option would be to 'emulsify' the silicone base with the alcohol. However, I have been looking for the right type of emulsifier for this job for a long time and cannot find anything suitable. What is required is a product that will emulsify a large amount of silicone with alcohol, without needing any water.
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Free Radical



Joined: 06 Mar 2009
Posts: 22
Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jands wrote:

One option would be to 'emulsify' the silicone base with the alcohol. However, I have been looking for the right type of emulsifier for this job for a long time and cannot find anything suitable. What is required is a product that will emulsify a large amount of silicone with alcohol, without needing any water.


I've since learned that there's no benefit to using anhydrous base as the formular does not penetrate the skin.

The need for Ferulic acid is just to stabalise the Vit C. But as you've pointed out, this creates the need for alchohol, which surely is the last thing you want on your face.

What I've done is to use a common water based emultion for dry skin and stabalise the Vit C by sticking the serum in the fridge. Can anyone see any problems with this approach?
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jands



Joined: 21 Nov 2005
Posts: 104
Location: Taiwan

PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Free Radical wrote:

I've since learned that there's no benefit to using anhydrous base as the formula does not penetrate the skin.


I am aware that this theory is being discussed on some other forums.

From what I understand this is based on the idea that silicone forms a barrier, and therefore hinders the absorption of active ingredients into the skin.

I can accept this reasoning in situations where one may apply a silicone based products, followed by another product.

However, Fitzpatrick's patent clearly states the following:

"Both of these are combined in an anhydrous polysilicone gel base, which acts as a “dermal patch,” releasing the water soluble acid slowly and the lipid soluble analog rapidly. "

This is another, quite different, method.

Even though a detailed answer about this was given in a 2006 post ( smartskincare.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1482&highlight= ) I would appreciate Dr. T's feedback on this, as I feel there is quite some confusion about this issue

Free Radical wrote:

What I've done is to use a common water based emulsion for dry skin and stabilize the Vit C by sticking the serum in the fridge. Can anyone see any problems with this approach?


It is not 'stabilized' just because it is in the fridge, LAA will start oxidizing as soon as it is in contact with water.

However, if you were to make this product fresh every week, then it would most certainly be a lot better than buying a product that has been sitting on the shelf for any number of weeks.
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drtodorov
Site Admin


Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 3087

PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was a double blind study utilizing ascobric acid and itetrahexyldecyl ascorbate in anhydrous, polysilicone gel vehicle, where increase in collagen and other improements were demonstrated.

-------------------------------------------

Dermatol Surg. 2002 Mar;28(3):231-6.

Double-blind, half-face study comparing topical vitamin C and vehicle for rejuvenation of photodamage.

Fitzpatrick RE, Rostan EF.

Dermatology Associates of San Diego County, Inc. 92024, USA.

BACKGROUND: Aging of the population, in particular the "baby boomers," has resulted in increased interest in methods of reversal of photodamage. Non-invasive treatments are in high demand, and our knowledge of mechanisms of photodamage to skin, protection of the skin, and repair of photodamage are becoming more sophisticated and complex. OBJECTIVE: The objective of this study is to determine if the topical use of a vitamin C preparation can stimulate the skin to repair photodamage and result in clinically visible differences, as well as microscopically visible improvement. METHODS: Ten patients applied in a double-blind manner a newly formulated vitamin C complex having 10% ascorbic acid (water soluble) and 7% tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate (lipid soluble) in an anhydrous polysilicone gel base to one-half of the face and the inactive polysilicone gel base to the opposite side. Clincial evaluation of wrinkling, pigmentation, inflammation, and hydration was performed prior to the study and at weeks 4, 8, and 12. Two mm punch biopsies of the lateral cheeks were performed at 12 weeks in four patients and stained with hematoxylin and eosin, as well as in situ hybridization studies using an anti-sense probe for mRNA for type I collagen. A questionnaire was also completed by each patient. RESULTS: A statistically significant improvement of the vitamin C-treated side was seen in the decreased photoaging scores of the cheeks (P = 0.006) and the peri-oral area (P = 0.01). The peri-orbital area improved bilaterally, probably indicating improved hydration. The overall facial improvement of the vitamin C side was statistically significant (P = 0.01). Biopsies showed increased Grenz zone collagen, as well as increased staining for mRNA for type I collagen. No patients were found to have any evidence of inflammation. Hydration was improved bilaterally. Four patients felt that the vitamin C-treated side improved unilaterally. No patient felt the placebo side showed unilateral improvement. CONCLUSION: This formulation of vitamin C results in clinically visible and statistically significant improvement in wrinkling when used topically for 12 weeks. This clinical improvement correlates with biopsy evidence of new collagen formation.
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orangehrzn



Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 1044

PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This study is an example of bad science which unfortunately is very typical for medicine. The problem with it is that it didn't investigate water soluble and lipid soluble forms of vit C separately. As a result, it is not clear which one caused the effect. The degree of improvement is not quantified by comparison with anything sensible - questionaries are not a proof, nor is 'stimulation of collagen' cause splashing face with water stimulates collagen too and 'erases' wrinkles temporarily. Even most hillarious is that the vehicle side showed improvement too due to 'improved hydration' which shows the 'effect' has a magnitude of a placebo.

Second problem is I don't understand how exactly a water soluble vit C particle will ever get absorbed in anhydrous vehicle???? It's like claiming I could powder my face with finely ground vit C and expect it to be 'absorbed' LOL

In general my suspicion is that the 'results' are astronomically eggagerated, something typical for skin care studies.
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drtodorov
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Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 3087

PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have some good points here. It would have been better if they had controls with each active ingredient alone. However, to the question whether silicone based vehicle blocks penetration of all actives -- if it did, neither of the actives would work. You are right that some of their measures are subjective but biopsies and especially mRNA staining are reasonably objective and they do indicate at least some increase in collagen.

The sad truth is that the many if not most clinical studies in the field of dermatology and skin care have some flaws, some more than others. The causes vary, from lack of competence, to bias, to -- quite often -- lack of resources [really well designed and comprehensive studies are much more expensive to conduct].

This does not mean that studies with some flaws should be ignored. In fact, many of the great discoveries were made via initially imperfect experiments. But they indeed should be interpreted in context.
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jands



Joined: 21 Nov 2005
Posts: 104
Location: Taiwan

PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

orangehrzn wrote:
Second problem is I don't understand how exactly a water soluble vit C particle will ever get absorbed in anhydrous vehicle???? It's like claiming I could powder my face with finely ground vit C and expect it to be 'absorbed'


My understanding is that the LAA is dispersed in the silicone base, and will dissolve slowly by the skin's natural moisture.
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orangehrzn



Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 1044

PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If that is the mechanism, it will work only on the interface between the skin and the gel. The skin moisture will not penetrate further into the gel (silicones are well known for water retention) which means the absorbtion of water soluble vit C will be limited.
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