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SCARY: Ascorbyl Palmitate dangerous for daytime use?!

 
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wannerce



Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 63

PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:01 am    Post subject: SCARY: Ascorbyl Palmitate dangerous for daytime use?! Reply with quote

Below is an excerpt from MayoClinic...would love anyone's thoughts on the matter...

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Ascorbyl Palmitate (C-Ester) is a dangerous form of Vitamin C for your skinToxic to skin cells when exposed to sunlight (UVB irradiation).

Although more stable than Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), it is not as stable long-term as the safe and effective form of Vitamin C: Magnesium Ascorbyl-Phosphate.

In November 2002 Doctors in the Department of Dermatology of the prestigious Mayo Clinic, published the results of their studies of topical Ascorbyl Palmitate (also known as C-Ester, and Ascorbic Acid-6-Palmitate). They noted that Ascorbic Acid-6-Palmitate degenerates when exposed to sunlight (UVB) on skin and is "toxic to epidermal (skin) cells. Our data suggest that, despite its antioxidant properties, Ascorbic Acid-6-Palmitate may intensify skin damage following physiologic doses of ultraviolet radiation" (what most people are normally exposed to). The reason for this double-edged sword is that the fatty acid component (Palmitate) reacts with the sunlight to become oxidized. This results in lipid peroxides. "End products of lipid peroxidation, such as 4-hydroxy-2-noneal, have been reported to mediate (cause) stress-activated protein kinase activation and cell toxicity (poisoning) in epithelial cells" (upper skin layer cells).

In referring to the use of Ascorbyl Palmitate in cosmetic products, these prominent Mayo Clinic doctors and scientists noted "its widespread use in numerous over-the-counter topical skin care products and sunscreens. These products contain concentrations of Ascorbic Acid-6-Palmitate as high as 15% (360 mM), thus "exceeding the dose range used in our experiments by a factor of 1000."
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drtodorov
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there a referenece to the publication of that study?
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wannerce



Joined: 20 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's in the dermcareMD site....in their blog section in an article about half way down....cannot tell if it's legit (appears to be) or a gimic to buy their products? WOuld love your feedback...

they are saying MAP is the only "safe" C to use as it does not kill skin cells and increase they hayflek limit like l-ascorbic, and does not turn toxic in the sun like esters.
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drtodorov
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, MAP is preferable to ascorbyl palmitate for other known reasons (as mentioned on this site) but comment on the above I need to read the actual study.
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wannerce



Joined: 20 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can read the "study" on youlooksoyoung.com

Go to the "book" dropdown and download it for free...i am in the process of reading it. Would love your remarks on the accuracy/plausibility of the articles and whether you think they are just trying to promote their products.

Also, their products are available on dermcaremd.com. I would also be interested in your analysis of ingredients and composition.

I currently dont use products containing glucosamine, but from what the site says, i should be using it since it's the #1 ingredient needed to restore younger, more supple looking skin (precursor to HA production, right)?
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drtodorov
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see it there. Could you post the link to it?
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wannerce



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

youlooksoyoung.com/YourPrescriptionforAgelessSkin.pdf
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drtodorov
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks. However, that's their eBook, not the actual research study. Besides, they refer to appendix G that doesn't seem to exist.
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AmyAlex



Joined: 24 May 2014
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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm also concerned about using ascorbyl palmitate or any of the oil soluble vitamin C's in sunscreen or during day with UV exposure. Can you please give your thoughts and is safest form L-AA or AA2G? Thank you Dr T!

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12445199


J Invest Dermatol. 2002 Nov;119(5):1103-8.
Vitamin C derivative ascorbyl palmitate promotes ultraviolet-B-induced lipid peroxidation and cytotoxicity in keratinocytes.
Meves A1, Stock SN, Beyerle A, Pittelkow MR, Peus D.
Author information

Abstract
Among the preventative and protective strategies against the harmful effects of ultraviolet radiation to the skin is the application of antioxidants. Ascorbic acid has been shown to protect against sunburn, delay the onset of skin tumors, and reduce ultraviolet-B-radiation-induced skin wrinkling. In this work, we sought to determine the antioxidative properties of a lipid-soluble derivative of ascorbic acid, ascorbic acid-6-palmitate. We found that ascorbic acid-6-palmitate reduced cellular levels of reactive oxygen species following ultraviolet B irradiation. Treatment of keratinocytes with ascorbic acid-6-palmitate inhibited ultraviolet-B-mediated activation of epidermal growth factor receptor, extracellular regulated kinases 1 and 2, and p38 kinase because of its ability to prevent reduced glutathione depletion and scavenge hydrogen peroxide. Ascorbic acid-6-palmitate strongly promoted ultraviolet-B-induced lipid peroxidation, c-Jun N-terminal kinase activation, and cytotoxicity, however. End products of lipid peroxidation, such as 4-hydroxy-2-nonenal, have been reported to mediate stress-activated protein kinase activation and cell toxicity in epithelial cells. The lipid component of ascorbic acid-6-palmitate probably contributes to the generation of oxidized lipid metabolites that are toxic to epidermal cells. Our data suggest that, despite its antioxidant properties, ascorbic acid-6-palmitate may intensify skin damage following physiologic doses of ultraviolet radiation.
Comment in
Ascorbyl-6-palmitate is not ascorbic acid. [J Invest Dermatol. 2002]
PMID: 12445199 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Free full text
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drtodorov
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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most creams have some oil, so if palmitic acid is the culprit here as the authors state, then anything with oil/fat, whether with ascorbic acid or not, will presumably produce this effect. Typically, vitamin E or BHT is added to skin care formulations to prevent lipid peroxidation.

Also, see
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12837482

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16154915
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Scinofi



Joined: 29 Jan 2015
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just came across the Meves study recently. It caught my eye because whilst the abstract is very scientific and moderate, the paper itself uses terms like "massive scale" and "catastrophic" to describe the skin cell death they were seeing with low doses of Ascorbyl Palmitate under physiologic levels of UV.

I appreciate the study link posted above appears to contradict that, and really wonder what it was in the Meves study that created such a dramatic negative effect. I am very keen to understand it so that I don't accidentally emulate it in my DIY efforts, or buy the wrong pre-made products.

I also would really like to know whether Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate is functionally different, or just slightly different and functionally equally as bad (or not) as Ascorbyl Palmitate. Any knowledge about this please?

e.g. Cetaphil's new sunscreen Suntivity Hydrating Lotion contains a large amount of Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate. I'm debating whether this formula is safe to use, as it is otherwise quite a nice product.

Thanks for any insights.
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drtodorov
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate has similarities with ascorbyl palmitate but it is sufficiently different so that one cannot predict whether it might produce the same effect w/o an actual study.

Also, it is still unclear how real are the alleged danger of ascorbyl palmitate during UV exposure. That was just a single test tube study, not a realistic clinicial trial with typical skin care vehicles (which usually contain anti-LPO agents like BHT or vitamin E).

In any case, if you wish to be extra cautious until further research is available, you could either avoid all lipid based C derivatives just in case (and use MAP or pure ascorbic acid instead for example), or only use them when you are NOT going to be exposed to the sun.
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drtodorov
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe. But to be prudent until further research is available, I suggest using it only when you are not going to be exposed to the sun or other UV sources.
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tfox



Joined: 29 May 2015
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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2015 7:50 am    Post subject: another question Reply with quote

What if the Ascorbyl Palmitate was mixed together with a uva/uvb sunblock like in this product formulation-

Titanium Dioxide. Zinc Oxide. Mica. Boron Nitride. Zinc Stearate. Lauroyl Lysine. Tricaprylin. Magnesium Silicate. Carthamus Tinctorius (Safflower) Seed Oil. Chamomilla Recutita (Matricaria) Flower Extract. Panax Ginseng Root Extract. Ginkgo Biloba Leaf Extract. Camellia Oleifera Leaf Extract. Ascorbyl Palmitate. Tocopheryl Acetate. Retinyl Palmitate. Chlorphenesin. Potassium Sorbate. Sodium Dehydroacetate
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