Smart Skin Care Forums
Home  -   Forum Index  -   Search  -   Register  -   Profile  -   Log in  -   FAQ  -   Contact Us

Can hylauronic acid be bad for your skin in the long run?

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Smart Skin Care Forum Index -> Basic Skin Care / Skin Health Maintenance
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Discohouse



Joined: 18 Oct 2006
Posts: 74

PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:31 pm    Post subject: Can hylauronic acid be bad for your skin in the long run? Reply with quote

Dr. Todorov, can I ask your opinion on this matter:
Can hylauronic acid be bad for your skin in the long run? I would like to know whether there is any reliable evidence to prove so otherwise? I also wonder whether the same could be said about a 24 hour moisturizer, in that it might slow down or stop the normal flow of keratinocytes to the skin.

I would like to know whether the same could be said about moisturizing with biological oils, such as emu oil and squalane. Could they also wet the outer layers of the skin too much? Or can only water do this?

I am sorry for all the questions.

Your advise would be very much appreciated beyond words.

I ask this because according to another doctor, Dr. Pickart, the doctor who discovered the GHK-Cu peptide, he said on his online forum the following:



Dr. Pickart said this:
healthyskin.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1550055903/m/1191054946?r=3791007356#3791007356

"I don't recommend HA (hyaluronic acid)


Hyaluronic acid (scientifically named "hyaluronan") is a sugar-like molecule that can bind huge amounts of water (1000-fold of its own weight).

When applied to the surface of human skin, it feels smooth and sensuous but will slowly wets the skin's outer protective proteins and damages the skin barrier. This can temprarily improve the looks of skin but does not help skin health. The outer layer of skin (what we actually see) is composed of keratinocytes. The signal that causes the skin to send new keratinocytes to the skin's surface is a dryness in the outer layers of the skin. Hydrating (wetting) the outer skin proteins slows or even stops the normal flow of keratinocytes to the skin surface. If the skin is kept wet, such as by using hyaluronan, the skin renewal is slowed and skin ends up looking older.

Skin Damaging Cosmetic Moisturizers are designed to push water into the skin and wet the outer skin proteins. Various detergents (but they may not be called detergents) and water-holding molecules such as hyaluronic acid often used to loosen the outer skin proteins so water can interact with them. But this weakens the skin barrier and lets in viruses, bacteria, and allergens.

In about 1997, there were studies from Denmark that found that oil/water skin moisturizers broke down the skin barrier. The concern was that this could increase infection in hospital patients. Since then, it has been found that

This means to skin is more slowly replaced and damage remains longer. Cosmetic moisturizers are designed to wet the outer skin proteins and push water into the skin to puff it up. Various detergents (but they may not be called detergents) are used to loosen the outer proteins so water can interact with them. The best example is the "cold creams" that women applied every night in the 1930s and 1940s. You may have seen these in old movies. Their skin was kept moist but the women ended with horrible wrinkles.

Various polymers of hyaluronan are used as skin injectable skin fillers. Injectable form of hyaluronic acid are sold as "not-from-animals" but they are from pathogenic bacteria. The FDA warns that the material contain small amounts of bacterial protein and this can produce allergic responses in time."
Back to top
View user's profile
drtodorov
Site Admin


Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 3256

PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a certain optimal level of moisture in the skin, including epidermis and stratum corneum, and there is a certain optimal level of epidermal renewal. Just like it is not optimal to have the skin that it "too wet" it is as bad or worse to have the skin that is chronically and excessively dry. The key is not how much ones moisturizes both whether skin is in the optimal range. People with normal or oily skin, don't generally need to moisturize all the time. On the other hand, people with persistently try skin tend to benefit from moisturizing. However, keep in mind that dry skin is often a result of lack of sebum (oily secretion) not from lack of water in the skin. Hence, for many people, products with emollients may be more effective that those with humectants.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Discohouse



Joined: 18 Oct 2006
Posts: 74

PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr. Todorov, so I guess it would be better to use oils than water holding molecules and/or humectants such as hylauronic acid, sodium pca, and possibly glycerin if used in high amounts... I understand how emollients might be better for your skin, but I would like to know whether they too could potentially damage the skin if used too much as well?

Which leads me to this question as well: how do moisturizers such as Aveeno work rank in terms of how good they can be for one's skin since they seem to condition the skin by forming a film with dimethicone (I guess more "natural" skin lotions tend to use cera alba "wax" instead), as well as using conditioning agents such as "distearyldimonium chloride" to stick onto the skin? Could this too potentially trap too much water onto the skin, especially if used just after taking a shower, and be damaging to the skin for those individuals who are NOT suffering from chronic dryness?
Back to top
View user's profile
LoveBuzz



Joined: 13 May 2014
Posts: 140

PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good questions and I too would like to know the answer.

Ever since taking Accutane my skin has been a bit dry. I've tended to use emu oil morning and nights. I also use MitoQ which is glycerin based, and home made CE Ferulic which is based on HA serum.

I'm wondering what I can do now to get around this. I could remove the HA from the CE Ferulic no problem. But would the glycerine be an issue too?
Back to top
View user's profile
drtodorov
Site Admin


Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 3256

PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Things like Aveeno, used sparingly, are sometimes quite effective for very dry skin or in very dry environments. Under more normal conditions and for moderately dry skin it may be worth trying something more natural (and "indigenous" to the skin) like ceramides and/or sodium PCA
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Discohouse



Joined: 18 Oct 2006
Posts: 74

PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

drtodorov wrote:
Things like Aveeno, used sparingly, are sometimes quite effective for very dry skin or in very dry environments. Under more normal conditions and for moderately dry skin it may be worth trying something more natural (and "indigenous" to the skin) like ceramides and/or sodium PCA


Thanks, Dr. Todorov, that answers my question.
I'll stick with using things like emu oil or squalane for moisturizing for now, and only use things like Aveeno, or things with hyaluronic acid only in very dry situations instead of all the time.

I will also wait a bit after finishing a shower to let some of the water evaporate off my skin before putting my emollients in order not to "trap" too much water under my skin. I know doing it right after a shower has been deemed the "correct" way to moisturize after a shower, but I want long term results, and not short term "plump skin" which might do more harm than good by over wetting the skin.


LoveBuzz wrote:

I'm wondering what I can do now to get around this. I could remove the HA from the CE Ferulic no problem. But would the glycerine be an issue too?


I actually DIY the original CE Ferulic also and I don't use the hyaluronic acid in it, but instead swap it with hydroxymethylcellulose in order to create a more serum like texture without the potential bad side effects of over using hyaluronic acid. Just use it at the same % as the HA. Also you need to let the hydroxymethylcellulose hydrate for about 1/2 hour before mixing in your other actives.

I also swap out the D-Panthenol since reading on smartskincare.com that it might not be good to be using for extended periods of time. I swap it with oat beta glucans in order to get soothing properties, and use the same % as the D-Panthenol.

As for the glycerin, it contains 3%, which I don't think is too big of a problem. Even Dr. Pickart, the man who discovered GHK-Cu, said that he only uses about 1-2% glycerin in his serums, so I don't think that should be a problem at these levels.

I'm not sure how much glyercin is in the Aveeno, but it is the 2nd ingredient in the formula, so it might be more than the typical 3%.
Back to top
View user's profile
LoveBuzz



Joined: 13 May 2014
Posts: 140

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

drtodorov wrote:
Things like Aveeno, used sparingly, are sometimes quite effective for very dry skin or in very dry environments. Under more normal conditions and for moderately dry skin it may be worth trying something more natural (and "indigenous" to the skin) like ceramides and/or sodium PCA

Could you please explain what you mean by using something more natural like ceramides or sodium PCA?

And where can I read more about them? I don't think they're really mentioned in your guides
Back to top
View user's profile
LoveBuzz



Joined: 13 May 2014
Posts: 140

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Discohouse wrote:
drtodorov wrote:
Things like Aveeno, used sparingly, are sometimes quite effective for very dry skin or in very dry environments. Under more normal conditions and for moderately dry skin it may be worth trying something more natural (and "indigenous" to the skin) like ceramides and/or sodium PCA


Thanks, Dr. Todorov, that answers my question.
I'll stick with using things like emu oil or squalane for moisturizing for now, and only use things like Aveeno, or things with hyaluronic acid only in very dry situations instead of all the time.

I will also wait a bit after finishing a shower to let some of the water evaporate off my skin before putting my emollients in order not to "trap" too much water under my skin. I know doing it right after a shower has been deemed the "correct" way to moisturize after a shower, but I want long term results, and not short term "plump skin" which might do more harm than good by over wetting the skin.


LoveBuzz wrote:

I'm wondering what I can do now to get around this. I could remove the HA from the CE Ferulic no problem. But would the glycerine be an issue too?


I actually DIY the original CE Ferulic also and I don't use the hyaluronic acid in it, but instead swap it with hydroxymethylcellulose in order to create a more serum like texture without the potential bad side effects of over using hyaluronic acid. Just use it at the same % as the HA. Also you need to let the hydroxymethylcellulose hydrate for about 1/2 hour before mixing in your other actives.

I also swap out the D-Panthenol since reading on smartskincare.com that it might not be good to be using for extended periods of time. I swap it with oat beta glucans in order to get soothing properties, and use the same % as the D-Panthenol.

As for the glycerin, it contains 3%, which I don't think is too big of a problem. Even Dr. Pickart, the man who discovered GHK-Cu, said that he only uses about 1-2% glycerin in his serums, so I don't think that should be a problem at these levels.

I'm not sure how much glyercin is in the Aveeno, but it is the 2nd ingredient in the formula, so it might be more than the typical 3%.


Couple questions:

1. hydroxymethylcellulose: What is it exactly and what is it doing? Is it comedogenic?

2. As above, but oat beta glucans?

And is there any reason any of this would interfere with the effectiveness of CE Ferulic?
Back to top
View user's profile
drtodorov
Site Admin


Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 3256

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hydroxymethyl cellulose is cellulose chemically modified to be hydrophilic, which makes it suitable as a thickening agent in aqueous solutions. It is usually well tolerated and often used in cosmetics. It does not have skin benefits as an active ingredient but can be used as a thickener, including in vitamin C serums. However, acidic environment created by ascorbic acid might cause slow acid hydrolysis of hydroxymethyl cellulose, so you would want to store such serum in the freezer or at least in refrigerator.

smartskincare.com/treatments/topical/betaglucan.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Discohouse



Joined: 18 Oct 2006
Posts: 74

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LoveBuzz wrote:

Couple questions:

1. hydroxymethylcellulose: What is it exactly and what is it doing? Is it comedogenic?

2. As above, but oat beta glucans?

And is there any reason any of this would interfere with the effectiveness of CE Ferulic?


It's very safe to use hydroxymethylcellulose.
It helps give a nice texture to the serum, since it helps to thicken it.

There is no reason for this ingredient to interfere with the effectiveness of the ascorbic acid since the ascorbic acid is stabilized by alpha tocopherol and ferulic acid. The other ingredients, namely, the ethoxydiglycol and propylene glycol act as solvents and work together with the laureth-23 to emulsify, plus they also act as penetration enhancers to make sure you absorb the vitamin c deeper into your skin. The phenoxyethanol is the preservative.

As Dr. Todorov said, it's best to store it in the fridge, especially since I am not a lab technician nor do I have a completely sanitized lab work area to formulate it. Also, I make 1 month batches, since it's not wise to make batches longer unless you are a professional and have incubators and the such to test your batches if they are still safe from harmful mold and bacteria. This is true for DIY, even with a preservative in it.
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Smart Skin Care Forum Index -> Basic Skin Care / Skin Health Maintenance All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group