Are soaps/cleansers stable?

[gunnaknow]

Hi drtodorov,

can you please tell me if the sodium/potassium fatty acid salts (soaps) that are saponified from fat, are unstable in an oxygen environment like fat itself? I know that if excess fat is left in soap it will go rancid but that isn't soap itself and I think most soap makers don't use too much fat for excess fat to be left over in the soap. My concern is about whether the soap molecules themselves are unstable in an oxygen environment, like fats and accumulate radicals like fats.

If so, perhaps mild, synthetic detergents would be better for cleansing with? Unless you happen to have a herd of livestock to make very fresh animal fat soap with because only saturated fat is stable and even that goes rancid with enough time.

If fatty acid salts (soaps) are unstable in an oxygen environment and accumulate radicals like glycerides (fats), can you tell me which detergents aren't unstable?

Also, I think detergents, including soaps have ionic components, which attracts dirt/grease but how is this different to the attractive and damaging properties of free radicals? Thanks for your help. This site is fantastic!

[drtodorov]

I suppose it depends on what kind of fat is used to make the soap. If soap is made from fully saturated fat, then it will oxidize relatively slowly. Also, if the manufacturer adds alipid oxidation inhibitor, like BHT, that can slow it down further. In other words, it would depend on the kind of fat used and preservatives, if any.

[gunnaknow]

Thanks Dr but that didn't really answer my question. Thanks anyway.

[Dfontaine]

I've never made a soap but as far as oil and rancidity go, you might try some rosemary oil extract.

You can get it here:
https://shop.gardenofwisdom.com/displayProductDocument.hg?productId=442

I don't really understand your question though. Are you concerned with the efficacy of acid salts if they are oxidized? And why?

It's been my understanding that good cleansing agents which take "stuff" off your skin (like polutants and top surface oils) but not taking oils OUT of your skin without leaving too much residue is the way to go.

If you're concerned about that, just use oatmeal as a cleanser. Boil some in water drain it, and use the water to wash your skin with face with it.

You can go much further in a formulation by giving it a more "soapy" or "bath gel" feeling, but worth a try and cheap.

[gunnaknow]

Thanks Dfontaine, I like the idea of using rosemary extract. Funnily enough, I just mentioned rosemary extract in the thread about fish oil. It, along with thyme extract (many others, lavender, sage etc) are excellent at keeping lipids free from radicals.

Whilst boiled oatmeal sounds interesting, I think I want to make something that will keep a little longer. I think I want to make a liquid cleanser with detergent suitable for sensative skin, added glycerin, aqua and rosemary/thyme/lavender/sage extract. I think I will make my own rosemary/thyme/lavender/sage extract. I have a garden full of the stuff. The best way to make such extracts is to use a non polar solvent like 99.99% pure butane.

The food industry usually uses solvents like hexane for oil extraction but butane is much quicker and superior because it boils off at -0.5 C, leaving the extract behind without heating, which would degrade some of the volatiles. The quality of oil extracted is extremely high because non polar solvents only extract the non polar substances, such as terpenes and oils, leaving the tars, pigments, waxes etc behind.

I don't recommend that any of you try using pure butane though. Extractions must be done outside so that butane vapours don't concentrate and there are no electrics where a spark could ignite the gas. It also requires a little DIY to construct a hand held extractor from cheap, stainless steal pipe, screw caps and coffee filter papers. Not to mention safety gloves, goggles, pyrex dish/bowl and triple refined butane lighter refill canisters (Colibri/Newport etc). Oooops, I am babbling! Get back on topic you fool! Ah yes, detergents, cleansers, antioxidants, lipid peroxidation, fatty acid salts (soaps) and the question as to whether they have the potential for accumulating radicals just like fats themselves.

[Dfontaine]

Right after I posted, I went outside and got some fresh rosemary and fresh lavender, put them in a pot of distilled water and boiled it. Then took Oatmeal with about 10 times the water you'd use when making it to eat and boilded it. after about 45 minutes of cooking both, I strained the Rosemary, lavender water through an unbleached coffee filter and strained the oatmeal with a fine strainer and put them together.

I washed my face with it. My face felt clean. Not like with soap and there was some residue (but a good residue)and you could see the water bead up from the oils already on my skin, but it felt clean. The formulation was watery and obviously didn't lather.
As far as it lasting a long time, I'll have to use some kind of preservative (this time I used Pheonip which are parabens that I use in lotion formulations) at about .08%. I've bottled some of it and I'll use it and smell it daily to see what happens. ;)

If I understand correctly, the 2 reasons you would use oil and/or fatty acid salts in a soap is One, because water based cleansers don't cling to the oil molecules therefore can't remove them. I think the idea behind oatmeal is that it "soaks" the oil up rather then surrounding it (or something like that). And Two, because of the cosmetic appeal of "softer skin" from the oils.

I think there is a fine line between what you want to take off your skin and what should be left as far as cleansers are concerned.

I enjoyed your babbling on the hexane extraction method. Got me thinking too much again ;)