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DMAE - cytotoxic?

 
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jands



Joined: 21 Nov 2005
Posts: 105
Location: Taiwan

PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:30 pm    Post subject: DMAE - cytotoxic? Reply with quote

Hi Dr. Todorov,

The following was recently posted on another skin care forum:

"stop using DMAE, it is cytotoxic.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=17300230&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum

The antiwrinkle effect of topical concentrated 2-dimethylaminoethanol involves a vacuolar cytopathology.

Br J Dermatol. 2007 Mar;156(3):433-9. PMID: 17300230 [PubMed - in process]"

Could you please explain the above quoted study and the possible consequences for users of topical DMAE?
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drtodorov
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Joined: 10 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The full article is not out yet, so it is hard to say how this relates to typical cosmetic use. The effects of DMAE depend on pH, vehicle, how applied, concenration, perhaps counterions and so forth.

The article says that effects of DMAE in their system where similar to triethnolamine. However, triethnolamine has been used in skin care for decades and while it might cause some low-level skin damage in some people (debatable) it is not seriously toxic to the skin at low concentrations.

The bottom like it that the data is interesting and should be followed up but it is too early to extrapolate to typical cosmetic use. In the meantime, if you wish to keep using topical DMAE, it may be prudent not to exceed 1% strength. Or you could switch to something else until there's more data.

Also, keep in mind that they talk mainly about damage to epidermis. Even AHA exfoliation damages epidermis to some degree. On the other hand, wrinkles form in the dermis.
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jands



Joined: 21 Nov 2005
Posts: 105
Location: Taiwan

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for the explanation
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merton



Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It will be interesting to see this completed work. Jumping the gun abit which is perhaps unfair, there are a few notes about the Abstract that seem worthy of note pending release of the full article.

1) It appears that the more caustic amine version of DMAE may have been utilized, rather than the bitartrate. If so it shouldn't be a suprise that the rabbits ears swelled up.

2) The in vivo testing was apparently conducted on the inner skin of a rabbit's ear. Whether this means the inner ear or skin higher up it would seem that this could be a rather sensitive region, especially on an animal that is among the apex of otological (ear) development. It seems analogous to testing on a dog's nose.

3) In vitro testing on cultured dermal fibroblasts of a rabbit and primary cultures of human cutaneous epithelial cells seem to open the possibility to a concentration level of DMAE far in excess of what could penetrate human skin. We'll have to wait and see.

4) The objective appears to be to show that "the very rapid effect on the apparent skin fullness" and the antiwrinkle effect of DMAE may be based on the "vacuolar cell expansion" that the experiment professes to demonstrate.

(I'm aware of a tightening rather than a fullness but this could be the case on a cellular level. It seems that the response of cell vacuoles could be a response to an irritant like the more alkaline amide version of DMAE.).

5) Former theories regarding DMAE have revolved around the substance's being a precursor to acetylcholine, in its well known role as a neurotransmitter (as well as lesser explored possibilities of regulation of cellular proliferation, locomotion, ect.) Specifically of interest are its primary role at the muscular nicotinic acetylcholine receptor sites. Indeed the specific antagonists in the anti-wrinkle agents SYN-AKE (dipeptide diaminobutyroyl benzylamide diacetate) and Vialox(r) (pentapeptideamide-4) , are believed to work by BLOCKING a portion of the receptor so acetylcholine cannot connect, thereby stopping the transmission of the electric signal to the muscle cells below the wrinkle, thereby causing it to relax. (as sodium ion channel blocker). This could perhaps be THE PRECISE OPPOSITE of the effect that an increased quantity of acetylcholine would have which would logically be the case with DMAE. This would explain the tightening effect of DMAE. Good for sagging areas. It strikes me as interesting that diametrically opposite intended modes of neural action could have the same intended result, wrinkle reduction.

The article may be excellent and I'm looking forward to it's full version as another piece in the puzzle.
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yogagirl



Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 84

PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr. T,
Can you explain the difference between an Abstract & a Study? This report about DMAE is an abstract, right? I thought an abstract was like a hypothesis - and that a study is then done to either prove or disprove the abstract? Is that right? I was never good in science in school, so I could be totally wrong. I'm just wondering how concerned we should be about this if an actual study hasn't been done about this yet.
Thanks!
:D
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drtodorov
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Abstract is a summary of any research paper. Clinical study often refers to a clinical trial testing a therapeutic agent in human subjects.
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jands



Joined: 21 Nov 2005
Posts: 105
Location: Taiwan

PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does this mean the the full paper is now available, or is this article still based on the above mentioned abstract:

medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=67643
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jamesherried



Joined: 07 May 2005
Posts: 812

PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's an article about DMAE from the website of The American Academy for Anti-Aging Medicine:

"Instant face lift" chemical DMAE damages skin cells
A chemical used in cosmetic products promising an "instant face lift" makes wrinkles disappear by damaging skin cells, Canadian researchers report.

"From our point of view the cells are altered. They stop dividing, they stop secreting, and after...24 hours a certain proportion of them die," Dr. Francois Marceau of the Centre Hospitalier Universitaire de Quebec told Reuters Health.

Marceau, a cell biologist, said he is reluctant to recommend that these products not be used. However, the findings make it clear that more research is needed on how these and similar products work. "I don't want to scare people," he added. "The risk is not probably very big, but in my opinion it hasn't been measured accurately."

Marceau and his team tested 2-dimethylaminoethanol (DMAE) in cultured rabbit and human skin cells. As the researchers predicted, applying the product caused a massive and rapid swelling of the cells as they filled with DMAE and water, leading to a thickening of the epidermal layer. They also found that DMAE was toxic to the skin cells, halting cell division, inhibiting secretion, and killing some cells after 24 hours of exposure.

This "facelift in a jar" chemical is certainly safer than a real facelift, or Botox injections, Marceau noted. Nevertheless, the fact that DMAE and other "cosmeceuticals," such as triethanolamine, aren't considered drugs means they are sold with very minimal information about how they work and their toxicity.

"We know far less for these chemicals than for any new drug that has been marketed in the last 30 years," Marceau said. "What I'd like to see is more science in this field." These chemicals should be treated as drugs, and many studies, such as of mode of action and toxicology, should be completed before it is marketed.

SOURCE: British Journal of Dermatology, April 2007.
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drtodorov
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's my thoughts on this matter:

smartskincare.com/ingredients/dmae_safety.html
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jamesherried



Joined: 07 May 2005
Posts: 812

PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read your article Dr. Todorov, and that is helpful. Meanwhile, maybe for a topical face lift, zinc is an alternative to DMAE. Like that Relastin product I mentioned on this forum. I know you said that zinc can displace copper, but if you use it with copper peptides, using that Relastin product might not be a problem.
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drtodorov
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps. There is no real science to back relastin at this point, but if you try it, post your experience.
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