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Vialox? (pentapeptideamide-4)
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guapagirl



Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 83

PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mmmmm, just as I suspected :wink:

I actually always thought it was counterproductive, but have heard claims (including one on this forum) that they work differently so they could be used at the same time.

Now I just have to decide what bugs me most, sag or wrinkles or totally overcome my natural laziness and apply two different actives (along with the myriad others) :lol:

Thank you both for your clear and informative answers :)
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merton



Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Guapagirl,

You're question was quite helpful in raising an important issue as you'll see.

Argireline and DMAE can be used at the same time. Just not in the same place. Mixing 5% of the algae material, it goes by pepha-tight and sometimes another name, in a lotion with DMAE really seems to work well for both the neck wrinkles and the sag. A dab of a dimethicone/cyclomethicone blend gives it much better feel (and allows it to be worn out otherwise its sticky).
(Don't add cyclomethicone to anything hot due to low flash point in some.)

As for argireline(tm) most people need 10% concentration to get results. (the liquid is standardized and sealed in Spain and this was the test concentration other reports notwithstanding). Like most polypeptides these little guys all compete for the same opening. Using it alone in whatever base works considerably better than having 10 other actives. You only have to leave it for half an hour and then put whatever over it. Using a fine tip aplicator argireline can be targeted directly into the forehead/crowsfeet/side of mouth wrinkles in a fine line. Then laying down lets it go where it needs to go. Dermaxyl(tm) products for lips and eye contouring with makeup right over it if desired.

Putting 2 mixed tocotrienols in 4 to 8 ounces of any lotion instead of regular E is a miracle worker.

But what I realized when pausing from writing the answer to your question was this. The two major wrinkle stoppers I described above work by jamming up the path of acetylcholine. DMAE is a major acetylcholine load. It may be the case that using both could be more than just counterproductive to the wrinkle removing endeavor. I believe DMAE is systemic (acetylcholine is generally a healthy thing).

These items are very new (well tested but new to market). I have no answer for this.

Dr. Todorov, what's your opinion on DMAE and nicotinic acetylcholine receptor antagonists being used at the same time?

-merton
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drtodorov
Site Admin


Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 3177

PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

merton wrote:


Dr. Todorov, what's your opinion on DMAE and nicotinic acetylcholine receptor antagonists being used at the same time?

-merton


If both are topical and in the same cream, i.e. appleid to same area, then, at least in theory, they may counteract each other, so it does not sound like a great idea. But in practice, you never know until you run a decent study.
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guapagirl



Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 83

PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Merton,

I take it you are using DMAE bitartrate? I have spent a long time looking for a good dmae serum but they seem pretty elusive :? Kripps do one with 5% DMAE, "pure" as opposed to the bitartrate, with5% R-ALA in a HA base, but the pH is really high at 10.5. They said they are looking into lowering it but I haven't heard back from them yet.

I do actually use the two together but in different places. I have the agireline / matrixyl mix from tpf which I have mixed into HA at a ration that gives me 10% agireline. It seems to work OK, though I prefered the ready mixed formula I got from cellularskinrx. Probably my percentages out or it doesn't mix that well with matrixyl I expect. Also, I am so rushed in the mornings, I never leave it for 30 mins! I have dropped using mandelic acid because the 30 min wait just took too long. To be honest, at the moment it's emu/cp/ha mixed in my palm and out the door most days!
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merton



Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm Guapagirl,

Many issues.

1) Although both matrixyl 3000(tm) and argireline are considered "water soluble" as suspended from the respective manufacturers the vehicles also contains glycerin and and some other appropriate items. They are both supposed to be suspended in something more similar to the skins lipid structure. Water in oil emulsion. This is why attaching the palm oil molecule to each peptide is necessary. If not compounding from scratch Cetaphil or one of the Lammalar bases would give better skin penetration and better feel.

2) As to DMAE there's many posts on which isomer is toxic. I imagine neither of ours is toxic since we're able to form sentences. When compounding I use the bitartrate which is invariably 37%. And I add 5% penta-tight (pulinan algae) which is major for neck items. A little bottle of the active lasts a long time.

The vialox was really an eye opener. I'm still in shock at the results.

Now when I'm completely lazy about DMAE compounding I use clear DMAE Firming Fluid from Reviva Labs that I get at Whole Foods supermarket. Its clean and it works very well. (the hidden truth)

Throwing a tocotrienol complex into any nonwater lotion is very beneficial.
Swallowing one with a lycopene here and there is also good.

I love HA as well. Unpreserved it goes bad quickly and needs to be treated with sterilility. It has to be pitched when cloudy or runny. Its a carbohydrate (string of sugars). A month is about the max after liquifying if unpreserved. FDA size drop of phenonip helps.

Have a great evening/morning,

-merton
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merton



Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've noted that Vialox(r) seems to lose much of its potency 1 week after reconstitution. (prior to reconstitution shelf life is 3 years assuming proper storage). This is consistent with the in vivo trials where the subject material was replaced weekly.

The other similar product based on the Temple Viper venom may have a longer life. It is not dispensed in the tamperproof premeasured vials and thus can be formulated into any lotion that has at least a partial water phase, therefore allowing for a preservative system. A consumer is however subject to the representation by the compounder as to percent which the manufacturer states as 1-4%.

My initial response to this product is at least equivilent to Vialox(r). An obvious reduction in forehead wrinkles within a two hour period at max % by weight. (the product is heavier than water).

The in vivo substantiation documentation for this product is both independent and double-blind.

-merton
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