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mandy



Joined: 04 Sep 2008
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:27 am    Post subject: Please help Reply with quote

Dear Dr Todorov-

I am hoping you can give me some advice. I had IPL done 3 mos ago and since then my skin has completely changed. I have had it done several times previously (for pigment spots) but, this time my skin reacted differently. My face looks hollow (my friends have asked me if I have lost weight) and there are lines and cracks all over my face. I am so so scared that due to the previous IPL treatments I have maybe reached the Hayflick limit. I read in your other section about it. Do you think that is possible? Do you have any recommendations for me regarding my skin?
I have been using Neova copper peptide night cream and I think this has maybe helped a little bit but, I am not sure.

Thanks so much,
Manyd
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orangehrzn



Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 1005

PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Hayflick limit does not mean that you will die after say 30 cell divisions because you have many cells. When a cell divides, the new call can divide another 30 times, each cell it creates can divide again 30 times so Hayflick is limit if you follow a single cell but for a human with gazillion of cells each dividing into new cells Hayflick is not really any danger. The aging comes when the division rate slows down due to hormonal decline.

Now about your problem, face can look hollow due to loss of fat volume. There are many causes for that, the main one is aging. Some people complained that IPL destoyed the fat in their faces, I don't think that is possible with the regular IPL cause it doesn't penetrate that much but it's possible if the IPL is combined with high intensity radiofrequency (RF) treatment. RF devices, like for example Thermage are very well known to cause fat loss in the face at agressive settings. Another possibility is that you lost collagen due to the Copper peptides, some people complained of adverse effects like that. These are all possibilities, just keep in mind people do look hollow because of normal aging. If the hollowing took place over several years, probably its just aging, if it took place during several months, then you can blame the IPL or the copper or any other procedure you had during that time. Losing weight and following agressive workout routine can deplete the body fat and make the face loow hollow too.
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mandy



Joined: 04 Sep 2008
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:19 am    Post subject: IPL Reply with quote

I understand that as we age our face hollows. However, the hollowing in my face was from the IPL. It occurred DRAMATICALLY RIGHT after the IPL. I also had other skin changes- cracks, lines and indentations that are all over my face. It was NOT a coincidence. I have NOT lost any weight. I have stayed the same weight all of my adult life. We don't know exactly what lasers can do when we use them and believe me it was a major surprise to me too. Especially since I have had the same thing done before and never experienced this side effect or anything like it. Just because you do not know of this or have not heard of it, does not mean that it can't happen. It DID happen and it has been an emotional rollercoaster for me to deal with since then. I am not here to debate the subject, I am telling you the facts.

It is interesting that you implied that it may have been the copper peptides instead of the IPL. Do you really think that a cream could do more damage than a laser???

I just started using the copper peptides a few weeks ago and I had already experienced the fat loss way before then.

Anyways, I am trying to understand why my skin has changed- if it is possible that the IPL damaged the skin and it reached the Hayflick limit? Or if cell divisions have slowed down after the IPL? If anybody else has any input I would appreciate it.
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orangehrzn



Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 1005

PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was not debating what you were saying just gave you all the possible explanations I could think of. Reaching the H. limit is not one of them. Probably the settings of IPL were too high or combined with RF, that they killed some fat below the skin, that is corroborated by the fact you have indentations.

I'll give you analogy to understand how H limit works. Consider the human race as a whole. A body is comprised of many cells, analogously the human race is comprised of all humans alive at the moment. Each human has a life span of say 80 years, that is the analogue of H. limit for each cell in the body. Just because a human lives 80 years does not meant the whole race is going to be wiped out in 80 years because humans reproduce before they die giving rice to other humans that live another 80 years etc. As long as the human reproduce, the race will remain alive. Analogously, as long as the cells divide and give rise to new cells, the body will live, despite the fact each cell has a H. limit.

Such a fat loss can be corrected by an experienced plastic surgeon that does fat grafting. If I was you, I would litigate the provider that did the IPL if it can be proven the settings were unusually high compared to your previous treatment. That may bring you some money to do fat grafting repair.
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mandy



Joined: 04 Sep 2008
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:28 am    Post subject: IPL Reply with quote

That was a great analogy and I believe I understand the process much better.

I hope I was not taking a mean tone, it's just that this has been hard to go through and especially when some people I have told this to, including the doctor who did it, said that it is impossible for it to have happened. It DID happen. I am in my 20's and it is not due to aging. The instrument used was actually sciton BBL. I am not sure if you know anything about this? The settings were much higher than previous times, I know this because when I left my face was very red and swollen and this had not happened before. In the past my results from IPL/BBL were great and I felt that it really helped my skin.

I have no intention of litigating- one reason is that I could not bear to hear people telling me that this did not happen or that this is impossible to have happened.

I am also concerned/wary of going to a doctor and having fat grafting and possibly have something go wrong with that. You just never know I have learned, I thought that IPL/BBL was a safe procedure and that there were little or no side effects. Unfortunately that could not be further from the truth.

One more question, do you think it is possible that the procedure could have made the cells in my face divide slower? I think that the lines and indentations are more likely due to underlying fat loss but, I am just also wondering if it is possible that my skin was damaged from too high of a setting and it can't repair itself as well as it used to be able to. The reason I think this is because I have lines also that have formed around my mouth- like where I smile and/or pucker, it's like they are little tears in my skin. It's like my skin can't repair itself like it used to or something.
Since each cell has an H limit, is it possible that the cells in my face have reached their limit?

Thank you for your reply and your explanation.
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orangehrzn



Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 1005

PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Theoretically, its possible, but I find it highly improbable, the IPL have damaged the stem cells that divide to produce new cells. Dr. T can give more detailed answer to that.

The lines may form due to dehydration or flaking of the epidermis due to topicals you are currently using. People often notice a few days after staring an exfoliator like salycilic acid or retin A etc that skin looks more wrinkled, that is just the dead epidermis that is about to flake off. If you are using exfoliator or harsh cleanser, I would reduce frequency of usage. Also be carefull with the copper peptides, some people reported adverse effects from it, although its very rare. If your skin doesn't look good after you start a topical, the reasonable thing to do is to stop the topical and give your skin time to normalize. Don't buy into the popular myth that 'it will get worse before it becomes better' or that it 'brings impurities to the surface'.
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mandy



Joined: 04 Sep 2008
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:34 pm    Post subject: IPL Reply with quote

I agree with everything you said about creams. I have not put anything on my face except sunscreen since the IPL. However, a few weeks ago I started using copper peptides. They seem to be helping a little bit.

Either they are helping or my skin is finally stabilizing as I have not had any new lines or indentations that have formed for the last few weeks. What I believe is going on is that the fat loss occurred and my skin is kind of "resettling" into it's new state with not as much fat.
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