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Reversing copper peptide damage
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septembrance



Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reversing copper peptide damage Reply with quote

Hi everyone :-) New here and have a question. I'm one of those rare instances of CP damage, resulting from use of Neutrogena's Visibly Firm Serum, and I was wondering what I can use to undo the damage. I now have "dimpling" on my cheeks, near my laugh lines, that is only visible when I smile but still extremely distressing. It looks like two horizontal indentations--not pretty. I've read that this damage is the result of healthy collagen destruction...if I use collagen boosting products, will that heal my skin? If this is the case, I could use some recommendations for collagen-boosting ingredients/products.

Thanks!
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drtodorov
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Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 3254

PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

These are rare cases, so i do not think there is much data on what remedies will work best.

If using collagen boosters, be cautious. For example, instead of ascorbic acid it may be safer to try something like tetrahexidecyl ascorbate or magnesium ascorbyl phosphate.

Peptides, such as Matrixyl, migh be worth a try too.


Last edited by drtodorov on Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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septembrance



Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, Dr. Todorov, for your response. I'm glad you cautioned me against using ascorbic acid because I was going to try exactly that, but it would most likely irritate my ubersensitive skin.

The indentations in my cheeks are looking better today...I don't know if it's due to the retinol and glycolic acid I've been using or my skin's own resiliency (34-year-old skin would rebound better than older skin, I would imagine). I'm hoping to see continued improvement, but if not I'll consider trying matrixyl or a less potent form of vitamin C.
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drtodorov
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Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 3254

PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Be prudent with glycolic acid too - it is also an potential irritant, especially at higher concentrations, just like ascorbic acid.
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bike6564



Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 1:40 pm    Post subject: copper damage Reply with quote

I think I'm one of those rare instances of CP damage too. About 3 mos ago I thought I should start using a product to help with firmness even though my skin was still really firm (I'm 40). After reading so much about copper I bought Osmotics. Then suddenly the skin of my neck started to sag. So I started slathering on more and more of the Osmotics; I had no idea that copper could cause collagen damage. I've been racking my brain trying to figure out why my neck had suddenly gone south when I found this website and read that copper can cause collagen destruction. I coincidentlly stopped the Osmotics about 1 month ago not because I thought it was the cause of the problem but because it obviously wasn't working, and have been using an Ole Henricksen aha product. I also started using a DIY vitamin C serum. Now I read that both of these products may not be good to use right now. My skin is not irritated or red, just the loss of tone on my neck, and the texture may be very, very slightly better now than it was a few weeks ago.

Question: does this sound like CP damage? I can't think of anything else that I've used that could cause this sudden problem. If this is CP damage, can skin repair itself? I've always taken really good care of my skin.

Thanks.
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drtodorov
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Joined: 10 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think vitamin C or AHA can cause that. Viamin C or alpha hydroxy may cause irritation sometimes because they are acidic, but they do not cause sudden sagging. Also, considering that you say that you didn't have skin irritation, I don't think vitamin C or AHA would be the cause of the problem.

However, speaking hypothetically, copper peptides in rare cases might cause excessive activation of proteases, which might cause the problem you describe without any irritation present.

Make sure you do not use CP anymore. Give your skin some rest and later, you could try things DMAE and/or Matrixyl to firm things up.


Last edited by drtodorov on Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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bike6564



Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the advice. I sure hope the damage will reverse itself because my neck was fine before this. So much for "preventative" maintenance.
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bike6564



Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 1:24 pm    Post subject: MMP inhibitors Reply with quote

Are MMP inhibitors useful in reversing copper peptide damage? Patricia Wexler has just released a MMPi Skin Regernating Serum that I have a trial sample of.
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drtodorov
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Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 3254

PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Theoretically, yes, because CP damage is likely mediated by MMP. In practice, no one has studied MMP inhibitors in people with CP adverse effects.
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maxxilla



Joined: 07 Jul 2005
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 3:26 pm    Post subject: Re: MMP inhibitors Reply with quote

bike6564 wrote:
Are MMP inhibitors useful in reversing copper peptide damage? Patricia Wexler has just released a MMPi Skin Regernating Serum that I have a trial sample of.


Have you tried this or any other of her products yet?
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bike6564



Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got the starter kit which had a cleanser, scrub, serum, day cream with spf, night cream and eye cream.

At first, I thought the products were nice but after a few days my skin got really itchy. I stopped the products and just tested them on my forearm for 3 days with no reaction so I started them again on my face and after a couple of days, the itchiness reoccurred.

I don't think they're necessarily bad products, and the science behind them is really interesting, but they just didn't work for me.

Instead I started using DIY DMAE which has dramatically improved the copper damage in about 2 months.
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mamp7728



Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:36 am    Post subject: Neutrogena CP Serum Reply with quote

Hi, I wanted to know from Septembrance, how long did you use the CP Serum for before you saw the reactions to it?? Did it ever clear up for you? I've been doing the micro and cp serum from Neutro for only a few days and i've already seen really good results in my laugh lines and crows feet. My eyes are starting to feel weird, droopy like, but they dont look diffent. Maybe i'm just nervous.

It's fusterating that something that FINALLY works can have awful side effects...
How long after use of CP Serum does it take to see these side effects??
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wvgal



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's the scoop on copper peptides? You mean it firms skin, and then can cause sagging? Is this correct? What do you do, stop using it, or cut back on the usage? Is the damage permanent?
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sheellah



Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Copper peptides remove damaged collagen, and that can result in a temporary loosing of the skin until the damage is replaced by new collagen. Usually the skin rebuilds even better and firmer. The looseness might be an indication that you're using too much copper, and the copper is removing damaged collagen faster than it can rebuild it. Go slower, use DMAE in the meantime, and your skin should bounce back even better!
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sheellah



Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was still concerned enough about what I had been reading here regarding copper peptides to write Dr. Pickart. I am using several of his copper products. I hope Dr. Pickart's reply below, which he has given me permission to post, is also of help to others in explaining what they might be experiencing.

"Copper-peptide oxidations were never observed on skin in any study in humans or animals. Even at copper levels that exist in Super Cop 2X. Todorov does not understand skin remodeling and confuses it with skin oxidations. Skin remodeling removes the older, damaged skin and proteins and replaces them with new skin cells and proteins. Too fast a pace on skin remodeling can remove older, hardened skin before the new skin and new protein is rebuilt and this can produce a temporary skin laxity but this always tightens later. But this is a tightly controlled regenerative process and not a biological oxidation. I will be giving a talk on skin remodeling at The 1st International Symposium on Wound Healing and Technology (WHAT I) in August. Todorov should attend so he understands what he is writing about.

But if what Todorov says is true, he should publish his studies in reviewed science journals. The world awaits his article."
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